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  #11  
Old 12-02-2014
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Right, Mastiffman and I talked about this yesterday. I went to EKU for biology and while in ecology class we had tiem in the field. We used a grid system counting all birds and identifing them in out grid then all the teams would meet back up at the end of the day. We would share our data and their was a calculation that would give an ideal of populations. Now its been over 20yrs and I dotn remember that calculation, but that is my question too. Who is diving in lake Tang and giving these numbers? How are they coming up with these numbers, by a glance at fish swimming by under water in rocky terrain or is there real science behind it? Its great to just take a dive and say looks like theres not a ton here, but what is really going into this to show they are so limited when they are so new and havent really been exported much? A good debate has to look at both sides, I love conservation and believe in it, but there has to be scientific facts to support it. Most of what I have seen comes from Air Fish, they were known as one of the largest exporters in the world so im alittle lost on this topic, did Konings actually dive there? Its easy to just find articles on the internet and take them for fact, but what real population counts have been doen there and how. Or are we just using propaganda to stop the going after of any new fish? I speak with Africa constantly and have for years my exporter does care about sustaining populations, hes not an idiot, he knows like fisherman here in the US now you must protect your livelyhood through conservation. Atleast from his end I was told they would only be collected from time to time in order to give them time to replinish numnbers and so far they are taking them out in large numbners of males to females. This topic is very new so just trying to see all the sides and I am due to talk with Africa at the end of the week and im going to try to get som ereal answers.
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  #12  
Old 12-02-2014
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Those scientists know exactly what they are doing. I have been on collection trips in Europe Belize and Africa. There are ways to accurately estimate the number of fish in a given area. Isn't it true that most variants of tropheus in the lake tend to stick to a couple hundred yards of a particular area? Isn't it true that tropheus and other fish tend to be habitual and are east to predict? So any scientist with any sense would know where and how to collect. I have seen fish completely wiped out in certain areas. Miles of river and not a single fish because of banana plantation run off. We didn't collect a single fish on that stretch and we all concluded that there were ZERO fish in the area. It was obvious. While I have not ever been on a tropheus collecting trip, I have don't extensive research on central and South American cichlids.

It is not a debate as to how many fish there actually are. The number could be more or even less. It's impossible to actually know for sure, but the fact is that these fish are endangered and attention is being brought about pertaining to this.
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Old 12-02-2014
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I understand what you are saying Trout... But knowing exactly what you are doing and determining whether if what is being done is honestly the most accurate method and is producing correct results are two totally different things in my book.

I don't think that it's impossible to know what the numbers are. Maybe down to an abolsute number. I just think that it's dangerous for the animal and highly inconvenient for many to acheive.

I think that it's a good idea for people to understand that. It's always best to question what is being implied if there is speculation of an alternative. Not to disagree but to clarify it all to acheive accurate knowledge. If people think that it's important enough to be discussed in detail then I think that it will happen by those who possess the details.
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2014
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Like I said I have no problem after bringing the fish in once to stop, but am looking for my info. Trout you say the scientist know what their doing, thats my question exactly, what scientist know what their doing, I havent seen one study or scientist name of actually being there, whats there names? All I have seen is articles from Air Fish you had always collected fish at the lake.
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Old 12-02-2014
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So no one is debating bringing them in anymore what we are looking for are the facts. We know some of the fish we love are used as food over there, some cant be accessed in parks or are in crocidile areas, some are being smothered by deforestation and the pulp dropping the O2 levels in the shallows and if they drill for oil we could loose the whole lake. So what I think we are looking for is how to be responsible, real science, real conservation numbers, not just who every dives here and there and doesnt think they see enough, this is the 2nd biggest lake in the world, like the ocean who knows what we dont know about it.
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Old 12-02-2014
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I think the bottom line is if the fish is close to extinct or low in numbers it shouldn't get imported period, but we all know that it will continue (US &/or Europe) no matter what until all the fish are exhausted. Even if we breed it here in the US how are the fish going to get introduced back into the lake? But how can we prevent it or get the population back up? Are there people in Africa currently breeding these Muragos like they're doing with the Tawainee Reefs in Malawi? So the answer is stop importing them and breed them in Africa until the population is back up...
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So this article also states, "Only for a very few cichlid species has the balance of extraction and replenishing been upset by over-fishing". So I agree with these really small populations we need to stay away from them. Once again I just heard about the fish this year when it was already in Dar and just said new and brought it in once. Now with this new info I will do my part by talking to my exporter and doing liek I do with the Ilangi and not importing it, but im not sure that will be enough. Thats what I was talking about above, that a few dives just looking around isnt a study or real science and maybe why the government doesnt step in, no real facts. I just wish they aproached things over there with alittle more precision and then maybe we wouldnt hear about it when it was already too late or close. I will do my part, discuss it with my exporter and not import them, but what else are we going to do? Because I promise you my part will not be enough to stop greed in a country as poor as Africa. We can do our part, but how many videos have we seen of elephants, rhinos dead for just small amounts of them to be taken and thats with game wardens hunting the offenders to kill them, but it continues. So we will do our parts as we should, but Africa will have to change and im not sure we will see that.
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Old 12-02-2014
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As long as you and me and everyone else here is doing their part it's a start. It may not solve all of the problems but at least we will know we are approaching this issue with the best intentions possible. As for facts I think it is much better to use caution until better information is available about any species that may or may not be in trouble. Once they are in trouble it could potentially be too late.
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  #19  
Old 12-03-2014
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GM -

Currently they are in the process of building some vats in Kipili, not sure what the completion date is. But, there is a real concern, about going into the small population and taking more at this time.

I think the goal is awareness, and the majority of the hobbyist I have talked with, had no idea of the situation and were glad to be informed. Sharing information about species at risk in the lake is important, not everyone belongs to a fish club where they may get this type of information. I have been very pleased with the uproar over the Tanzanian murago, it shows that hobbyists really do care. And I find that comforting and encouraging.

Cichlid Power!
Pam
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  #20  
Old 12-03-2014
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I Just wanted to let everyone know that I merged these two threads. together...

Just felt it was kind of silly to have two threads on the same topic on one forum. No offense of course.

Sincerely,

Andrew C.
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