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-   -   Debate: bloat and food (http://trophs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26484)

fishdisease 07-10-2014 03:50 AM

bloat and food
 
I've seen many topics that address bloat ... fish were fed with flakes, in all ...
I organized this poll in order to identify some elements regarding food as a risk factor of bloat development. Please, tick the proper situation in your case to establish the prevalence of bloat, correlated with type of food.

Mastiffman 07-10-2014 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishdisease (Post 217280)
I've seen many topics that address bloat ... fish were fed with flakes, in all ...
I organized this poll in order to identify some elements regarding food as a risk factor of bloat development. Please, tick the proper situation in your case to establish the prevalence of bloat, correlated with type of food.

Very sorry about this I completely forgot your request for this poll. But glad you figured it out! ;)

Bloat started mainly as referencing Malawi Bloat and is now more a catch all phrase for a symptom of an underlying issue. It can be caused from protozoa, Internal parasites (bad infestation of worms although not likely) and bacterial infections. Bacterial infections themselves can cause numerous things. Dropsy (can be start anywhere on the body), Abdominal Dropsy (mainly focused in the abdominal cavity causing ascites or build of fluid in the abdominal cavity between the abdominal lining and the organs) and kidney infections. Both Kidneys and Liver filter and purify the blood and body of toxins and waste products in a few ways while the kidney's regulate electrolytes and fluids. Both can be infected and if left untreated, the infection can spread to the other organs. The kidney infections are what causes Popeye (bulging of the eye's) but abdominal dropsy can supposedly also start with symptoms of swollen/ protruding eye's. While not to be confused with eye infections which will typically be a swollen/ protruding and cloudy eye(s) that can also show redness around the eye in advanced cases.

I still think that although stress can be the majority contributing factor to bloat, there are indeed numerous other and previously mentioned causes including an instant change in food. It can severely disrupt the digestive system and either cause the stress that induces effects from an attack of already present bacteria on a weaken immune system, protozoa or parasites or in yet unknown frequency of dry cavities in food that quickly ingested creating perfect breeding grounds for bacteria within the food and ultimately the digestive tract.

One thing that I have noticed is that while I had all of my fish on solely Ocean Nutrition: Formula Two Foods I had 100% no issues as it was such a moist pellet that with some firm pressure could be flattened into an almost disc shaped between your fingers. Once I added omega one pellets (as I just drop the pellets into the water) I started noticing slightly protruding eye's on 1 or two random fish. Which didn't seem to affect their spawning at all but did make a difference in their feces as well. The Ocean Nutrition: F2 never produced a visible and extending from the anus, waste product... (Sorry!? A bit graphic description ahead..) It was always just a soft release of stool that mostly dissolved within a few seconds after entering the water column. With the addition of Omega one and Dainchi Veggie FX and Veggie Deluxe I'm noticing more often "hanging" feces and more waste on the tank floor...

This is not to say that Omega One or Dainichi are bad foods. it was just an observation that I've made.

fishdisease 07-10-2014 06:14 PM

Andrew, indeed, all things are as you said. I know all these ... I am veterinarian, full professor at the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Cluj-Napoca. I teach my students Fish Pathology and Parasitology.

I had the idea of this poll last week when four or five topics about bloat were active on the forum. Then I noticed that the fish were fed with flakes in all cases...but no slow sinking granules or others... so, the I wondered: is it possible that the flakes act as a risk factor favoring bloat? Is it possible that flakes will modify intestinal transit, local biochemistry or other parameters of digestion stimulating flagellates to grow excessively and causing bloat? In this discussion, I distinguish bloat from dropsy or another cause... I am referring strictly to bloat caused by flagellates.

So, it is important that members who had bloat to tick their answer for a good comparison between the type of food and the right conclusion.

troph56 07-10-2014 08:34 PM

I have not had any bloat instances for a long time now, however when I did have a bloat incident I was also feeding too much and I think the pellets I was using at the time were too big in my opinion. I have always fed Spirulina flakes with no issues along with NLS-Thera A. One thing that I did change and has helped at least in my own opinion is I will only feed pellets of 1mm in size and no bigger. I just feel like smaller pellets are easier on the fishes digestive tract, I could be wrong on this assumption but I have not had any problems since sticking with this size pellets.

Mastiffman 07-10-2014 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troph56 (Post 217292)
I have not had any bloat instances for a long time now, however when I did have a bloat incident I was also feeding too much and I think the pellets I was using at the time were too big in my opinion. I have always fed Spirulina flakes with no issues along with NLS-Thera A. One thing that I did change and has helped at least in my own opinion is I will only feed pellets of 1mm in size and no bigger. I just feel like smaller pellets are easier on the fishes digestive tract, I could be wrong on this assumption but I have not had any problems since sticking with this size pellets.

That's a good point and something I was thinking about.

I think that people have been using flakes for so long and not many are pellet users and that it can be a difficult transition for the owner to get used to.

You don't have to fed the pellets no where near as much as the flakes. The pellets are compact and dense and when looking at the amount that is fed of flakes compared to the amount of pellets, it may be deceiving. I have had fine success with medium (3-4mm) pellets of both Ocean Nutrition and Dainichi pellets.

It's a test and tune type of situation though. But it's always best to start off small and work your way up. Slow and Steady wins the race with Trophs for sure!

Flakes can although be messy if in smaller pieces and I've found larger pieces are easier for the fish to grab and will lesson the amount of missed pieces floating around that get sucked into the filtration ultimately causing poor water quality, faster.

JimA 07-10-2014 10:38 PM

I have been using the 1mm pellets and flake for a few months now and really like it. Waste is down, trophs are happy = win, win situation. I switched over from the ON formula 2 pellets to the your fish stuff super veggie flake and pellets. Very happy with it!


Not sure what's up with all the bloat issues lately, knock on wood I have not had an issue since getting into Trophs almost 5 years now I think.. FWIW mine have all been F1s while I would love a group of WC F1s and their offspring are just fine!

Mastiffman 07-10-2014 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimA (Post 217298)
I have been using the 1mm pellets and flake for a few months now and really like it. Waste is down, trophs are happy = win, win situation. I switched over from the ON formula 2 pellets to the your fish stuff super veggie flake and pellets. Very happy with it!


Not sure what's up with all the bloat issues lately, knock on wood I have not had an issue since getting into Trophs almost 5 years now I think.. FWIW mine have all been F1s while I would love a group of WC F1s and their offspring are just fine!

Good to hear Jim...

I will comment that I think that you are onto something with that last sentence. ;)

rrraptor 07-11-2014 11:26 AM

I have dealt with bloat a few times over the years, and one common thing I have noticed in my cases, is that the bloat has only appeared during introduction of new fish to an existing colony. I have never had bloat show up on an established colony. So is there an existing dormant parasite that may be triggered by stress or diet changes and a outbreak starts ?

Mastiffman 07-11-2014 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrraptor (Post 217303)
I have dealt with bloat a few times over the years, and one common thing I have noticed in my cases, is that the bloat has only appeared during introduction of new fish to an existing colony. I have never had bloat show up on an established colony. So is there an existing dormant parasite that may be triggered by stress or diet changes and a outbreak starts ?


My question is which fish got bloat?

I'm guessing the new ones... I think that may narrow down a possible cause for you.

rrraptor 07-11-2014 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mastiffman (Post 217307)
My question is which fish got bloat?

I'm guessing the new ones... I think that may narrow down a possible cause for you.

Drew,

You are correct, it has always been the new fish to get the bloat, or as in the last case it was just POP-EYES, and lost them all if you remember about a yr ago. All while the established ones were breeding while the new ones were dying off.


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